Ain’t But One Woman Allowed to Be In Love With My Pastor
An interesting little thread developed on my Facebook page yesterday that I felt the need to clarify in more than 160 characters.
Those of you who blog know that statistic programs (Sitemeter, etc.) exist that show what google searches people used to arrive at your blog if that is indeed how they found it. It’s a crack up to look at them because you’ll see anything from “My wife dresses me like a girl” to “I’m in love with my preacher and he has a wife.” Both real searches that someone, somewhere on the planet used to arrive at my blog this week.
To the dude whose wife dresses you like a girl: Did you find something here that helped? If you did, I’m closing down this blog immediately.
As for the woman in love with her pastor, let’s talk about that.
Firstly I need to clarify that this ‘googler’ could be from anywhere in the world. Just because she found me doesn’t mean this is someone in our church. Or like my Facebook remark that started this whole thing – at least she better not be. (It’s a joke, y’all. I don’t think that for a split second.) I first made light of the search because that is just how I roll, but the more I thought about it the less funny it became.
I talked to a couple of friends about this topic today and I think they were both shocked at how common an unhealthy attachment to the pastor can be. In fact, this search is by far not the first. I’ve never written on this loaded topic, but apparently the ‘preacher wife’ aspect of this site leads some to believe an answer may be found here.
And don’t let me leave it as though needy parishioners are the only ones who can instigate some inappropriate behavior. Pastors can be just as guilty – not mine mind you – but only because Luke and I know full well how Satan would love to destroy our family and we are diligent in protecting our relationship. Let me be clear that neither one of us thinks for a single second the other would be unfaithful but we also understand the concept of ‘be careful if you think you stand lest you fall’.
So what does that look like for us?
Primarily, we have been ultra-intentional in preserving our relationship and friendship through ministry and parenting. We’ve fought long and hard for the marriage we have and there’s no stinkin’ way we are giving up on it at this stage in the game. One of the things I believe most strongly is that there is no such thing as a ‘successful’ ministry if our homes are in shambles. Can’t storm the gates of hell outside your house if you are busy raising it on the inside. I pray for ministry wives often that the Lord would preserve your relationships in the midst of the obvious stressors your family will face as you serve His Body.
Practically, Luke does not nor will not meet with a woman alone. Period. If a female needs counsel then it is agreed in advance that either I will be there or the door will be wide open in full view and hearing of the secretary so that there can be no misunderstanding as to content of the conversation. I do not mean to suggest that every woman who needs the advice of her pastor is automatically on the prowl. However, it is naive to think that someone in desperate circumstances – especially one experiencing marital discord – is not more vulnerable to form an emotional attachment to someone she may perceive as being everything her own husband is not.
And again, let’s not let the pastor off the hook. This is why strong marriages in ministry are so vital. It is not unheard of for a chivalrous male to suddenly become attached to a woman he feels the need to rescue – especially if he feels unneeded at home. Considering both sides, I think it is pretty easy to see how sharing intimate life details can create an environment ripe for indiscretion if we aren’t wise to the devil’s schemes.
I’m interested in hearing from you girls about this – ministry wives and lay people alike. What safeguards have your families put in place? What advice can you give? Does your pastor/church have policies to protect both parties? Please feel free to discuss all of the many angles I didn’t cover because this short post is in no way meant to be exhaustive. Really, it’s just more of a discussion starter so…let’s discuss! I’ll be answering in the comments…
My husband is a children’s pastor…and we take all of the same safeguards you suggested. My husband and I made a promise to each other even when dating that we would never dine alone or ride in a car alone with someone of the opposite sex. That may sound like a given, but situations have come up, while completely innocent, where we have both had to make other arrangements or say, “No thank you” to keep this promise to one another. My husband has always been very careful to change the channel quickly when prevocative commercials come on the t.v. too. such as Victoria’s Secret, and so on. He has always done that on his very own, that was not something I’ve ever requested he do. Just a conviction within him I guess. Also, when he does have to meet with a female on his ministry team, he always asks that her husband or a friend be present. That’s not only for his protection, but it also keeps “misinterpretations” of the conversation from occuring. Someone is much less likely to twist your words around if there is a witness. =) Good stuff Lisa!
Lisa,
You are spot on… there is so much to risk and your perception and wisdom in this area is of the Lord. Thank you.
Girl.
This post brings laughter AND tears.
Laughter, because your fb status was so funny.
I totally took it as a joke, then didn’t give it another thought.
Tears because I’ve been the wife in that marriage where you’ve worked long and hard to build the friendship and the bond to make a strong relationship, married to the preacher’s son who goes on all the mission trips, prays with you, helps the needy, and praises God with his words and actions on a daily basis… only to find out that for 15 years he’s been cheating on you with I can’t count how many women (strangers AND close friends) and you were blind to it all. Then the rug is yanked out from under you and you have no idea how you’re suddenly a single mom with two little ones just as devastated as you are. I don’t take anything for granted anymore. Even though I’m happily remarried now to a wonderful man, I wish I could say that pain is gone. It’s better for sure. But not forgotten. It certainly affected how I see my self-worth. (I can’t even see the words on this screen through the tears right now). The good news is: through all of that, I have learned that every single person we love will let us down at some point in our life. I strive daily to have Jesus be the ONLY one I have expectations of and confidence in (based on His love and His promises).
All of that said, I counseled with my pastor a couple times in the beginning, and then with professional Christian counselors. My pastor, sweet man that he was, had the door closed and it was just he and I. I wasn’t completely comfortable with it for reasons I can’t even put my finger on, even though he did help a lot in those couple sessions. The professionals (one was male, then later a female) both had the door closed, just the two of us, but it somehow felt different… more safe. Which sounds weird, I know. But looking back, I think it must’ve been the structuredness of it and the less informal environment (no hug hello or niceties like ‘how’s your dad?’), compared to the pastor’s office. Does that even make sense?
This was probably of no help or insight to you whatsoever. Sorry ’bout that.
But that’s all I’ve got for ya tonight.
Love you Lisa.
Not a pw but I remember a pastor leaving a church in the town I grew up in due to infidelity (he was asked to leave the role and he and his wife did remain married)…anyway, he attended our church for a while and I remember the pain the situation brought him and his family and children. They made it through but I’m sure there are scars even today.
The whole counseling thing is tricky…my brother is a highschool guidance counselor and he leaves the door open when speaking to students but of course there are things that students don’t want overheard by anyone so it’s a tough one to figure out. A pastor has the same issue.
I think we as lay people need to always be in prayer for our pastors and their families and marriage…marriage is hard work without the sort of stresses you face in ministry.
Oh, Lavonda. I had no idea. NO idea.
I”m so sorry you experienced this betrayal. I know your transparency is going to minister to women who read this post. It saddens me but strengthens me to know that you did not let your loss of faith in a person cause you to lose your faith in God and His goodness.
I love you my friend. Thank you so much for sharing this with us..
I just happened upon your blog this evening and wanted to put my two cents’ worth in on this subject. My husband is a pastor and was an assistant pastor before pastoring this church. His rules for dealing with women are the same as your husband’s, and I have the same for myself – never alone with another man. Neither of us hug members of the opposite sex, either, unless they are extended family members (brothers & sisters), of course, and then it’s a quick hug.
In our last ministry, two of the staff men were caught in affairs with two of the staff wives – all four of them keeping their secret together – and nearly devastated our church and all four of their families. The sin seems to have started when all of them allowed themselves to become too familiar with each other and spending too much time together, with and without their spouses. Two of the couples were “best friends” who spent a lot of time together outside of ministry duties. I can’t stress enough the importance of keeping ourselves emotionally distant from members of the opposite sex – don’t belittle your spouse to anyone, don’t share intimate details of your life . . . keep your emotional wall high. One of the women involved in those affairs was a close friend of mine, and as I looked back, I could see times when I had felt uncomfortable with her level of comfort with this other man – she was beyond friendly with him; they were buddies at work. She let her emotional wall down with him, and they ended up in bed together.
I could talk and talk about this kind of thing! It’s so important to guard your heart. God knew what he was talking about in Proverbs when he said to guard your heart!
Anyway, good topic that needs to be addressed. All too often it gets hushed up for fear of gossip. Thanks for tackling it!
Lisa @ The Preacher's Wife Reply:
November 17th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Excellent point Susan that this isn’t just the pastor’s issue but many times the pastor’s wife. I am just like you – friendly enough not to seem aloof but definitely not a man hugger. I NEVER spend time with a man alone. And another point I would like to raise in this Cougar Era in which we live. A pastor’s wife should also be aware of affections from teen boys. This is an area I often don’t even think about because my son is a teenager. Because I’ve known most of these teens now since they were children, I still think of them as such. However, raging hormones can set a boys mind in a different direction if they perceive they are getting an inordinate amount of attention from you or you are more free with affection with them because you do still view them as a child. Those boys turn into men almost overnight so I think it is wise to watch our actions with them as well. Way too many school teacher/student things in the news to not take notice!
Gonna comment anonymously for this one only cos I want to protect my parents and not talk about their lives online where people (who know me) can link back to me and connect the dots.
I’ve felt first hand how this can hurt a family. My father was a minister, and my mother confided in me 5 yrs ago that I have a half sister. To say it hurt is an understatement…the pain was deep!! And I was just the daughter, hearing this about my father, I can’t imagine the anguish my mother went through all those years when she first found out and kept it to herself. My siblings still don’t know, I can’t tell them, it’s something my father needs to tell them.
He and I have since talked about it, I raised it with him one day – that was a hard conversation! That was a reality check for me back then when I found out, I determined then that I’d do everything I could (with God’s strength and help) to never allow that door to be opened in my marriage. I believe it’s a two way thing. Yes in the end the ‘act’ was my dad’s in doing what he did – but there was a part my mother played in both what she did (to weaken) and didn’t do (to strengthen) the marriage over the years.
My husband is in ministry now and from day one he’s made it a policy to never counsel women alone. If at work he uses the counseling rooms which are private (closed) yet public (glass walls/door), or he invites the person to our home to speak while I’m present. I never had to ask him to do that, I’m so glad he just did this and told me that was how he would always do it. It was also triggered off by the thing with my dad (which we found out before we went into ministry). It shook him up a lot…shook us both up actually. No one is exempt from a fall. It’s only God who can keep us from this kind of thing.
Lisa @ The Preacher's Wife Reply:
November 17th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Sweet anonymous…
I don’t even know what to say except I am so sorry you’ve had to experience this. I think it is so wonderful for your hubby to sensitive to you by being extra diligent in your marriage. Good Job Pastor!
My husband is a youth pastor and, like your husband, won’t counsel a female alone. Someone is always there and the door is always open. He also won’t give a girl a ride home. He’ll wait for 2 hours for someone to come pick her up (and make someone else wait with him!) if he has to, but he just won’t let himself be put in that situation.
Thanks for this post.
Lisa @ The Preacher's Wife Reply:
November 17th, 2009 at 9:48 am
My hubby does bus ministry often and will drive 20 miles out of the way to make sure a girl is not the last one on. If he doesn’t have a logical reroute, I take her home! :)
I’ve seen first hand what an affair will do to a church and to a family. I was 12 at the time and it had a huge impact on me, it wasn’t my parents, but another close family member. It hurt like you know what and broke my parents hearts. This family member was a great person, parent and very active in the church. I know that they didn’t wake up one day and say, “I think I’ll go out and have an affair!” It happened little by little. I learned at that young age to not be suprised by anything and that everyone is capable of anything. So as I’m writing this, I know full well that I am capable of it and that my husband is too. We have a great marriage, but I have seen to many people fall from this to feel like we can relax our guard on our marriage.
He does all the same things as your husband does and I am careful myself. I really feel that we need to keep our guard up at all times and be aware of those around our husbands. Both of us at times have had to go to each other and say, “Hey, I’ve noticed “him” or I’ve noticed “her” and I think you need to be careful.” Not ever really thinking that this other person had bad intentions, but just taking the side of precaution.
I really think that Satan is after families in ministries, because he knows if he can get one of us then he has not only destroyed our family, but others who looked up to us.
Lisa @ The Preacher's Wife Reply:
November 17th, 2009 at 9:48 am
EXACTLY Kelly…I don’t think anyone goes looking for these things. It’s more like James 1 that says “but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear
brotherssisters!I love your blog…. it makes me laugh, and now it makes me cry. I am a PW, and just like you have placed many safe guards to protect my marriage and my family. If a woman needs counsel, it is a well-known fact that I will be present. I refuse to allow satan to use someone to tear apart what we have worked hard to maintain. Neither of us give rides to the opposite sex without someone else present. My husband has woken me up late at night when in Youth Ministry to give a teenage girl a ride home…. I was glad to comply. The fact of the matter is that satan would rather destroy our lives and ministry than to see God glorified in either. We need to protect ourselves.
I have seen a close friend and former Pastor fall in to sexual sin with a member, and it destroyed all involved. I was shocked and vowed that it would never be me…by the grace of God. My heart breaks for those women and men who have to go through this pain.
Lisa,
Girl first of all you hit the nail on the head
I have no idea why people are so naive
My husband and I have the same policy about being alone
with someone of the opposite se*
It is important to be aware
no matter who you are that the enemy is “roaming the
earth waiting to devour” us
We also have an open policy to make sure that we share how we feel
I want my husband to know he can tell me if he needs more time, attention, etc
And lots of laughter also keeps us close and the best of friends! :)
Much love
Kim
Lisa @ The Preacher's Wife Reply:
November 17th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Kim…You bring up an excellent point… ALL marriages are vulnerable – not just those of the minister. Many a workplace romance was kindled because a woman and man confided in one another too many times. Like Wanda says..it’s a slow fade..
It’s a slow fade!!!
My hubby never counsels alone! This has been a rule all throughout our ministry life. We understand the vulnerability of all parties involved. Satan is looking….searching for any crack to invade and destroy families. Especially ministry families.
We’ve found that satan will do just about anything to trash a ministry….including using God’s called minister and the flock!
More than once….have we prayed for hurting families (ministry families) over this sin. No one is exempt!
Been reading you in Google reader–your blog is so cute these days–love it!
Have to say, love the reader, but it’s, well, UGLY. But convenient.
Anyhoo, love you, girl!
Joanne
LIke most that have commented my husband too has the same policy. He either counsels with me in the room, or the door is open. One time he was the only one at the church, a woman popped in for counsel and I couldn’t get to the church. So he called me and then left the phone on his desk so I could hear what was being said. (I, however did not listen to the whole conversation).
He and I both know that we are prime candidates for a broken marriage and we fight (and love) hard to keep that from happening.
Lisa,
I fully agree with your safeguards. I do not know what kind of church you attend, but the final safeguard might be this– having an agreement with your husband that divorce is not an option. God hates divorce (Mal 2:16), and Jesus said it is not ok to divorce for any other reason but adultery and those who divorce for any other reason cannot remarry (Matt 19:9).
I married a college minister who is only 23 years old now. Imagine the girls he comes into contact with on a daily basis. He does the same things you have mentioned– open doors, others present, etc– but he also knows that divorce is not an option, not just because he loves me, but because the Bible says so, and we love God with all our hearts.
If he were to remarry for reasons other than what the scriptures allow (death or adultery), he would never have a preaching job again.
Preach it sistah! This has always been our marriage philopsophy… and it should be in our out of ministry.
My husband trained all our staff… youth pastors and wives, etc. never to be alone with anyone of opposite sex. It only takes one temptation or one accusation.
It is amazing to me how many couples my husband and I see in ministry and in and those christian couples who we come in contact with at Marriage Retreats where we speak who have no idea of healthy boundaries. A MUST!
Pushed enter too soon…. “I AM ON THIS SOAPBOX with YOU!”
Hi LIsa. GREAT topic.
My husband isn’t in pastoral ministry anymore, but when he was he practiced many of the guidelines you and your husband have laid out.
John and I agreed long ago that I would always drive our female babysitters home. I can think of only one time he’s taken one of them home. Her parents were good friends of ours and he called and asked if they minded if he drove her instead of me. They said that spoke volumes.
We’ve always been VERY open with each other. I remember once that I struggled with some attraction (crush-like attraction) towards a guy I worked with. I told J about it and asked him to pray for me because I didn’t know how to handle it. He prayed and I was therefore VERY accountable. Same thing with him. I remember him saying, “Hey, will you pray for me today? I’ve got to go to the hospital for a visit and there is a cute nurse on such and such floor that *always* flirts with me.” Accountability!
Facebook has opened up even more conversation for us. One of his high school friends “friended” him and has made comments I didn’t appreciate. Things like, “wow, you’re still hot” and other seemingly innocent stuff (though I’m not innocent enough to believe it’s always innocent). We’ve talked. A person from my past friended me and it stirred up some feelings that I thought were buried. Passwords and email accounts are always shared between us. I think it does a world of good to make your spouse aware and to talk, talk, talk!!!
Lisa:
I totally agree with all that you have said. We have a policy that my pastor/hubby does not ever meet with a women or girl alone and I do not ever meet with anyone of the opposite sex alone. ( obviously this does not include family. Because well that would be near impossible.) I don’t have any male, other than my son, father and hubby’s phone number in my cell phone. If we have to contact someone of the opposite sex we either have the other make the call or one of our children make the call. I now it sounds a bit extreme, but being above board and protecting our marriage is totally worth it. This can be a bother sometimes but totally worth it.
For us (hubbie Senior pastor) it’s all about him having an accountability partner. I COULD NOT live without S. in my husbands life!!! And I really feel that all pastors should have one in place who ask them the tough questions and keeps them accountable. By the way, S. is another pastor (not in our church) which makes it even better!
Well, like you, we have the policy not to be alone with the opposite sex. This was VERY hard when I was in youth ministry because I was the only female in that area of ministry – and the only female on staff. BUT, I still kept true to the policy.
I once worked at a church that had french doors for all the office doors. Hubby won’t meet in a closed office unless it has a window. In fact, when we moved to this new ministry position, they had to install a new door on his office because it didn’t have a window.
Hubby also makes it a policy that his computer monitor can be seen from the office doorway. He’s counciled too many people who have delt with pornography problems and doesn’t want to leave a shadow of a doubt.
Like a previous commenter, we make all passwords, accounts, and phones known to one another. I know we have nothing to hide from one another, but I also know that the accountability helps create trust in our relationship.
At our previous church, I knew of 2 separate women who “had a thing” for my sweet hubby. One recently called him “for some advice.” I simply told hubby my feelings about her — even though they sounded jealous. He later told me that he hadn’t seen it, but now looking back he could tell how some of her “neediness” was just to have an excuse to talk with him. He then quickly referred her to her current Sunday school teacher (a female) for future advice. :)
We cannot be too careful. Satan wants to destroy the church. Unfortunately, our familys are often in the crossfire. Thanks for the discussion, Lisa!!
Lisa, here’s what I’ve been thinking lately. IMAGINE the worst possible sin you can imagine, then imagine yourself committing it, because we are capable of ANYTHING! Without God, we don’t stand a chance!
Interesting post and sadly very common,
I think that our lovely husbands are seen as admiral and sweet loving husbands and I think that cause some women to be attractive to them, but I also believe in setting safeguards, I mean Satan never sleeps and destroying a Pastors Marriage is like icing on the cake for him, so it is up to us to be diligent and for our husbands to be wise.
The safeguards we have are,
1. My hubby never counsels a women without me
2. Any women parishioners that calls him, he always says “hold on” and goes and find me and we speaker phone the conversation
3. He makes it very clear in church that his wife is his partner in crime, I mean ministry :) and gives me my place, ALWAYS
4. He never never hugs a female parishoner and when some of our teenage girls try to hug him, he gives a side mini hug.
5. When after service he does his door meet and greet, I am right there with him.
Aside from that I pray for my husband, I put him up to Jesus and always pray and cover our marriage in prayer…..
Man after reading that I just thought, I am protective of him…. But he is hunky though…
I just ran through the responses quickly so I hope I’m not restating something that someone else has said but an important issue that has come up in my husbands ministry is ’emotional cheating.’ I know it can seem petty but my husband and I had all the same safety nets in place that I’ve heard the other PW’s mention but we had a situation come up that caught me off guard.
A faithful servant in our church that is involved in many of the churches ministries seen that my husband was going through a rough time and started to do little things to encourage him (cards, and email and that kind of thing). Stuff that seemed really harmless. But little did she know that my husband and I were having a rough time and weren’t seeing eye to eye which was making if difficult for us to communicate on other issues. Anyway, it wasn’t long before I found some email that had nothing specifically inappropriate in them but made me uncomfortable. I didn’t like that my husband would be sharing such personal thoughts with another woman besides myself. Now I just want to say that I don’t think that my husband had consciencly decided to do anything wrong and even the other woman involved I think fully believed there was nothing inappropriate either. But as a child who came from a home broken up over infidelity my red flags just started going up. And in our vunerable state I seen a slippery slope ahead of us.
I confronted my husband about the issue and he agreed that he would have been uncomfortable if the roles had been reversed and I would have been confiding in another male besides him. He agreed to try to keep a healthy distance from this woman and without it being so much a tangible thing I think an inner barrier went up in him that let her know that he wasn’t available for any type of intimacy, even that of friendship with another woman besides his wife.
So we had the open door, never alone with another woman policy but it wasn’t a needy parishener but a faithful God loving woman that Satan had tried to use, arming her with the best intentions to try and sabotage my marriage.
This wasn’t the first time and it probably is not the last time Satan has went for our marriage but I think we get stronger with each attempt and some of it we can even laugh at now. Like the church member that had a foot fetish issue and was always trying to buy my husband shoes!
This is a treasure trove of good advice and great testimony. Thankyou everyone! I hope you will include a session on this in your retreat Lisa if its suitable.
About counseling: As soon as Steve got to his new church, he had a window installed in his office door. And he put the “counseling chairs” within view of the window. Although there are blinds installed (for when he is alone and praying or studying and wants privacy) the blinds are wide open when a woman is in there.
And of course, he isn’t in the church building alone with her.
That way, if she has something to discuss that’s confidential, the door can be closed but they will both still be in view. I can’t imagine some of the things he’s heard in his office even being able to be said with the door open–that seems to be like it would a breach of confidentiality.
Just a thought–windows are great! But they only work, if there are other people nearby in the building.
Thanks for a great discussion.
A topic that hits home with me. We have follwed a ministry that ended in marital unfaithfulness and have seen the hurt that is caused when a minister falls into this type of sin. In my own marriage we have some safeguards in place like others do, but sometimes not always easy to follow. Your topic has made me think again about how important it is to keep our own marriage strong and in what ways we can do that.
Amen sister! I’m with you! I’d love to have tea with you one day. You sound like someone I’d love to be friends with. Hope you enjoy my book! Blessings, Wendy Ellis